Working with a CoFounder with Tanis Jorge | E100

Speaker 1: Welcome to the Financial Planning for Canadian Business Owners podcast. You will hear about industry insights with award winning financial planner and entrepreneur Jason Pereira. Through the interviews with different experts with their stories and advice, you will learn how you can navigate the challenges of being an entrepreneur, plan for success and make the most of your business and life. And now your host, Jason Pereira.

Jason Pereira: And welcome to episode number 100, and thank you for having stuck around this long, if you have. Unless you're discovering this for the first time, in which case, by all means, you have a lot to catch up on. It's on to today's topic. So today I have a conversation with Tanis Jorge, founder of The Cofounder's Hub. And basically, The Cofounder's Hub is a resource for helping understand how to come together as co-founders in order to enable success. Because for those of you who have been in successful partnerships, it can be great. For those of you who've been in unsuccessful partnerships, it can be torture. And as I like to say, it's basically like getting married, only with business. So with that, here's my interview with Tanis.

Jason Pereira: Tanis, thanks again for the time today.

Tanis: Hi, Jason. Thank you. This is exciting.

Jason Pereira: So Tanis, tell us a little about yourself.

Tanis: Yeah, for sure. So, serial tech entrepreneur. Started my first business just outside of high school, and I started that business with my best friend in high school, actually. Stephen and I had lockers beside each other through high school, and throughout those five years together we built a really great friendship. And when we graduated, Stephen approached me with an idea that he had and said, hey, do you want to try this business together? And I said, sure, it sounded like fun.

Tanis: And from there, we went on to build three data-driven tech companies over the course of 10 years. Each of them took about three years to build. All of them were successfully acquired. At the end of those 10 years, we kind of shook hands and said, that was a great ride, fun. I said, I'm going to go start a family, and Steve said, okay, sounds good. We shook hands, and I always joke that entrepreneurship's a bit like the mafia. Just when you think you're out, it sucks you back in. And so that's what happened. He said, I have an idea. I'm going to go to Silicon Valley. Do you want to partner up again? And I said, sure. And so off he went to the valley. I managed a very small engineering team in Vancouver, and we started Trulioo. Trulioo began as an identity verification company utilizing cyber data. 10 years later, in 2021, it reached unicorn status. And basically it's been a crazy ride. So I could say I built four companies over 20 years with the same co-founder, and that's what has led me to the journey where I am today.

Jason Pereira: Quite the journey, I must say. Once you've proven you can work together once, it's a lot easier the second time to make that choice, I'm guessing, right?

Tanis: Absolutely, yeah.

Jason Pereira: Excellent. All right, so specifically, you're also the co-founder, or the founder, of The Cofounder's Hub, which is... You know what, instead of me butchering this, I'll let you talk about it in your own words.

Tanis: Yeah. So when I left the day-to-day at Trulioo, I asked myself, what is it that I want to do with the next phase of my life? And one of the things that I reflected on was, what is it that I get asked to advise on frequently? And what happened was, I was approached often by founders who were in partnerships, and they said, look, you've got a track record. How is it that you and your partner are still friends, you're still working together, and you haven't killed each other yet? That's kind of the premise of everything. And it got me to really think, and I began to search around and realized there wasn't a lot of resources for founders.

Tanis: And then I found this statistic. The statistic is, of partnerships, 65% of them will fail because of issues between the founders. And I don't know about you, but I'm a massive proponent for entrepreneurship. I'm a big believer in free markets and innovation and disruption by these people who are bringing these ideas to life. And when I realized that 65% of these partnerships are ruined by the relationship with the people who initially, in the beginning, had such dreams and visions together, that really made me, frankly, sad. So I set out to reflect on my own partnership and the partnerships of hundreds of other founders that I interviewed and surveyed, and the book, The Cofounder's Handbook, was born.

Jason Pereira: Excellent. So yeah, as for being passionate about entrepreneurship, hey, I got a podcast, okay?

Tanis: I know, I know. I said that and I'm like, of course, this guy. Oh yeah, of course he gets it.

Jason Pereira: Yeah. So, and it's not surprising, right? I mean, I find that in talking to people who are like, oh, we had this wonderful idea, we're going to partner, me and my friend, and we both think this is awesome. Oftentimes, just the agreement that this is something they wanted to do was all the thought that went into it. Which is kind of like a Vegas wedding in a lot of ways, right? You know, you meet someone, like, oh my God, this is great, let's get this done, this is a great idea. And you know how many of those work out. So the reality is, I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is your work spouse. You've got to take as much time and care with making that decision, otherwise it could be as financially ruinous as having the wrong real spouse. So let's talk about basically what people should be considering at that early stage. They're like, oh, I got an idea, I want to do something, I want to bring this person on for the ride, or we came up with it together. What is it they need to be thinking about when that happens?

Tanis: Yeah, Jason, you actually brought up one really interesting point. So again, back to some statistics. So 35% of people will enter a partnership just with the person they ideated with. So they're in there, they're talking one night over a bonfire, and they go, hey, I got this great idea. Their friend's like, yeah, that's awesome. And they riff on it for a little while, and then they go, well, we talked about it together, so I guess you're my business partner. And one of the things that I have seen as I've talked to people who've been in failed partnerships and good partnerships is, ultimately, there needs to be a lot more thought into that partner beyond just because you were friends and just because you started off in the beginning. And I think what happens is people don't fully realize that this person is going to be with you for the long term, and your ability to work with them will ultimately affect your financial success, your professional success. People invest a lot of money into their businesses, and you really don't want to, like you said, just offhandedly jump into something where they will be a key factor in your success.

Tanis: So the first thing that I tell people to do is to really analyze, is this the right partnership? And there's two ways to do that. The first one is actually looking at yourself very deeply. So we have a product on The Cofounder's Hub called the self-assessment, and we walk people through the most in-depth self-analysis that you have, everything from your personality, your skill set, to, you know, what life stage are you in right now? What are your ultimate goals? What are your needs? Needs being, is there anything that's a non-negotiable in this partnership? And really analyzing it, because it's some of these things that are actually the nail in your coffin before you even sign that partnership agreement. So we really make people look internally at who they are and get a big picture of where they excel and where their gaps are.

Jason Pereira: Yeah. I mean, here's the reality. You may get along with this person in a social setting and whatnot. You might be fully happy with them as your friend. But the reality is that when now you're sharing authority and, more importantly, in many cases, decisions about money, that is a recipe for conflict. And further to that, I will also say this much. Unlike a relationship where there's primarily two people in the relationship, when you're a partner or co-founder, it's the other person's personal life which is also a part of that relationship, right? So it's the needs of the family and the spouses and everything else that come into it that may drive some short or long-term thinking, depending upon where people's life stages are, like you just said. So this is a common issue. It's, let's talk about the prenup before we actually get married, or make sure it's what we want to do. It's the marriage class in advance. So all right, so you have that workbook. What are you hoping that they uncover there? Like, what are the warning signs you're trying to prevent from happening?

Tanis: Yeah. So I think, first and foremost, I want people to have a very clear picture of what they bring to the table and to really analyze how this will affect a partnership. So I'm going to go back to the life stage section. Stephen and I had a great partnership for those 10 years, but for some reason, in the fourth business that we had together, something was a little bit different. And upon reflection, at that point, when I started Trulioo, I had two kids under two. In all our other businesses, I had no children. So that was definitely...

Jason Pereira: That'll change things, yeah.

Tanis: It was definitely a factor. Never thought about it. It never crossed our mind that this would be something that would really change the dynamics that we have. I thought I could just dive in like I always did, and I realized halfway through going, oh God, this is a lot harder to do. So this was a dynamic that really affected us. So the goal in the assessment is to really help you find out about yourself and sit back and go, how is this piece going to affect a partnership, and where would it be?

Tanis: So the second piece that I tell people to do is to nail down expectations. So many times when I talk to partners in conflict, they say words like, I thought they were going to, I presumed this was going to be. And presumption is the death of any partnership. You really need to articulate and talk about these what seem like obvious things, but make sure you're on the same page. Like, for example, post-COVID, this idea of, oh, we're going to work from home. In a co-founder partnership, sometimes working from home feels like you're not at work, right? And so you have to discuss, what does that look like if one of the partners is going to work from home and not be in the office? How often are we allowed to do this? Because if resentment falls in, if a partner starts to feel like the other one isn't holding up their weight, and maybe they are, they just don't see it, then these are the things that can start to create rifts. So nailing down expectations, communicating on the tough topics, that's the second key when you're first starting out your partnership.

Jason Pereira: Excellent. All right, so, you know, I think it's obvious to say that, frankly, if those problems come up in that discovery stage, then you probably should part company at that point, right?

Tanis: Oh, for sure. If you can part before it goes sideways, it's going to save you a lot of money.

Jason Pereira: Excellent. Okay, so basically, all right, so that's the before. Let's just imagine that, you know, a group does one of two things. Either they decide, yeah, we're not going to do this, or they decide they are going to move forward, either because there were no warning signs or they're ignoring the warning signs. Which is not unusual, because I've seen the ignoring the warning signs thing far too often. Because, again, people just seem to think that the friendship is important and therefore it will solve the problem, right?

Tanis: Yeah, but it's different when you're in communication with each other constantly throughout the day, and in a way it tests the limits of that friendship.

Jason Pereira: So, second piece of this. Okay, so let's say they get going, right? What are the best practices around working together that would basically help create that harmony going forward?

Tanis: Yeah. So the first thing that I recommend that people do is shift their perspective. The most important thing that they can do in their business is make sure that relationship with their partner is going well. So the first word that I use is intentionality. Oftentimes, co-founder partnerships, I call them the set it and forget it relationship. I get in, and then that's the last time that we actually talk to each other when it comes to the partnership itself. And I would say that you need to be, just like a marriage in many ways, or like a really good friendship, you need to be touching base on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, monthly basis, and then something big on an annual basis.

Tanis: And what I recommend that this is, is keeping each other updated. Again, a lot of times when resentment comes into place is that I don't know what my partner's been doing on a daily basis. If I'm able to regularly let them know, hey, this is what I did today, got this done, working on this tomorrow, a two sentence email, it doesn't have to be big, what it does is it builds that trust in your partner, where they know without a doubt that that person is getting things done as well, and they don't have to question and go, what did they do today? What are they getting done? And it creates accountability as a partner as well, to make sure that you're actually knocking off those milestones. So that's the daily, just hello. Same thing with weekly and monthly, a little more in depth at that point. You just say, hey, got this done, what do you think about this? Throwing out these questions. Again, it's involving your partner, because if they start to change the vision of where they see the business go, you're affected. So really, communication, being intentional with that partner, that is the biggest insurance policy you can make in your business.

Jason Pereira: Okay. So people seem to think that success in business often solves those problems of partnership, right? I mean, in failure, I mean, if things are going poorly, at some point one or both are going to decide they've got to hang up their skates on this one, they're going to be done with it. If both of them don't feel the same way, that can cause issues, of course, but at the same time, I mean, it's a little bit more understandable. Sometimes it's not going well, someone wants to leave. Fair, okay. Things are going well, that doesn't always match, and the issues that often creates are bigger problems. Care to speak about what those look like and how that could be basically hopefully dealt with in advance?

Tanis: Yeah, for sure. So scaling is a big issue. Sometimes as a company grows faster and faster, gets bigger and bigger, obviously more problems come into play. And as a company succeeds, I find that founders start to consider their exit in some ways as well. So it's like, okay, we're succeeding. It looks like I'm going to potentially reach my goals in the next five, 10 years, and people start to think about, what does my future hold? They also may begin to start to think about, how do we take this business to the next level, when it might not be the founders that are the ones who do that. And sometimes there's these questions. Sometimes if it's a VC-backed company, the investors are starting to think about that. So again, this is where the conversations become really important about the big picture, where you're saying, hey, we're growing to here. Do you want to grow the business? Do you want to keep going? Where are your goals now, considering we're making X amount of dollars, we're running this kind of revenue? And really being forward thinking about the role, about how long that person wants to stay in the business. Those are the kind of questions that need to come into play. Start listening to your investors. Are they saying, you know, how are you doing this, knowing that they might be thinking of replacing the CEO? And then what happens if your investors decide they want to replace one of the founders? Are you going to go along with it? These, again, they're beautiful questions to have to ask, because then you can prepare. I'm a huge proponent about preparation. It's like a chess game. Business is like a chess game. If you can be two, three moves out and anticipate what these moves could be, then you can prepare for it ahead of time and be ready and not be caught off guard.

Jason Pereira: Excellent. Yeah, and I'd say the reality is, yeah, it's like a scenario analysis. You have to put yourself in those mindsets and basically say, okay, what if, and do all those analyses about where you guys think. And you hit upon something interesting there. It doesn't have to be a VC firm, but the reality is that oftentimes the person who gets the business from zero to one is not the person to get the business from one to a hundred, right? There's this concept called the entrepreneurial chasm. An entrepreneur is needed to go from nothing to something, but at a certain point, the business becomes about stewardship more than it is about — for lack of a better term — gumption, right? So basically, I think that's a good... And you know what, here's the other thing too, is that sometimes partners, maybe one may be better at one than the other. Maybe the first partner is really good at getting things started, but the second partner is really the person who should be running things long term, because it's about keeping the trains running on time. So have you seen that kind of conflict, where basically that sort of dynamic exists?

Tanis: Yeah, definitely. I think that oftentimes when you have co-founders, again, I like to tell everyone that your partnership will end. Just know that it's going to end, in a good way or it's going to end in a bad way. So that preparation ahead of time is so essential. And recognizing, I ask people to look at it in the fact that if you can put the business as the central figure in your relationship, then emotional decisions have less bite. So for example, if early on you decide that every decision that you make will run through the one question, which is, is this the right thing for the business, you will depersonalize these important questions that need to be asked. You mentioned early on, I did too, it's like a marriage. It's not, actually, because in a marriage, the most important thing is how you treat one another, and that you're sacrificing for each other's happiness. In a partnership, you actually have to sacrifice for the business. And what that means is that you aren't always going to make your partner happy. If they say, listen, I want my wife to work in the business, or my son or my daughter to work in the business, if you say, okay, is this the right move for the business, then it's easier than saying, actually, your son's a bit of a deadbeat and I don't want them in the business. That's a very personal response, and it might be the right one, but you really want to depersonalize it so that you can hit these questions as they come.

Jason Pereira: And let's just be clear, having that depersonalized question doesn't mean that both people are going to agree to that. And again, another example of running into a conflict, unfortunately, the loser child scenario is unfortunately an all too common one that has broken up more than one partnership and destroyed more than one company, but it is what it is. All right, so, okay, so we talked about conflict resolution prior to and after the fact. Let's talk about the exit. As you said, every partnership is going to end. You know, I always say, people tell me they don't want to retire, and I'm like, you're going to retire horizontally or vertically. It's your choice. At the end of the day, every partnership is going to end, either by people willfully exiting, unwillfully exiting, or just dying, right? Like, that's it, right? And whether that be the business dying or them dying, it's a problem. So talk to me about a business that is now considering its late stage options. How important is the alignment between these partners? I know that's a big question, because it can vary depending on the deal on the table, but talk to me about the best practices around that.

Tanis: Yeah. So you talk about your exit before you sign your partnership agreement. And what that means is, you sit down and you create a process, contractually, that allows a partner to leave. So there are contracts and agreements and clauses that one can apply to a partnership agreement, and you do that in the very beginning. That's, again, another key important piece when you start that business, so there is a very civilized, pre-approved transaction that can take place if a partner needs to leave. And again, unfortunately, sometimes it's terrible. Sometimes it's because of a divorce or an illness or just some life factor that really changes that dynamic, and we never know what life is going to throw at us. So having this ahead of time is really, really important. And the problem with that, though, is that when you're starting a partnership, very few people want to go, okay, now what are we going to do when we break up? That's a very negative, almost feels like a wet blanket scenario in the beginning, but it's really, really important.

Tanis: And then, when it finally comes time to exit, there's a mentality that you need to bring to the table, and that is, if we work this out maturely and effectively, we will both win in this scenario. This isn't the time to say, you did this, you're expecting this. This is the time to kind of pull up your bootstraps and say, this isn't emotional. This is, how do we both win? And I think if you can have that mentality going in and just draw a line and say, I'm not bringing baggage into this negotiation, that instead we are going to find the best solution out, that is a key component to success in that exit. But again, drawing out all your solutions, what are the ways we could do this? A lot of times people just think, well, you've got to leave and I'll buy you out. But maybe there's other ways. Maybe they can stay in a role in a different way, or maybe they can take an exit for a period of time and then come back in the business. Really analyze what are all the options, and really spend some time in that.

Jason Pereira: Excellent. So, okay, so as for the exit, this is going to be a plug for my friend Tom Deans' book. He's got a book called Every Family's Business, and at the end of it, there's some 12 questions that you should be asking yourself on an annual basis, and it works for non-family members, right? It's like, do we want to still be doing this? If not, what would it take? What would be the cost? What's the benefit? All kinds of stuff. I think it's a good pulse check to do that on a regular basis. Okay. So, yeah, and now here's the real challenge, right? Let's say they decide to exit, right? At the end of the day, everyone's trying to sell their business, and everybody thinks their business is beautiful. And someone, I saw them at a conference in the US, wrote a book, it's called Your Baby's Not That Beautiful, or Not That Pretty, which is, like, the best name for a business book ever. And it's true, because everybody wants, you know, there's this defensiveness about getting the highest price. You've invested all your, you know, and there's all kinds of other things that people bring into this. All this potential here, and then, I've invested my blood, sweat and tears in this. And the reality is that people can't get their heads around, no one's paying for that. What they're paying for is what they're buying, not what it could be. So talk to me about how basically to best approach that exit, especially around price, and making sure everyone is on the same page.

Tanis: Yeah, I'm literally going through this right now with some founders, right now, where one is adamant that their baby's beautiful, and the other one, hear this, the other one is like, no, our baby's not. And the reason for that is because that founder is in the thick of selling the company. So this is where I would say, when you decide that you're going to sell the company, or move on, or transition to a new CEO, it is imperative that all the partners are involved in that process. Because they need to see, and they need to be sitting at the table when a potential buyer says, why are you trying to get this much money for your company? And it really makes an impact when these buyers look you in the eye and say, your business isn't worth this much, versus your co-founder coming to you and saying, I just met with the buyer, he said our business isn't worth it. Well, then that co-founder is thinking in their head, well, did you say this? Well, did you tell them that? Does he know this? They need to be at the table and hear that conversation that you had with them, and know they did tell them this, they did show them, and they did do this, and this buyer still looked at them and said, you guys are in left field here. So making sure those co-founders are together in that process and are very involved, and are CC'd on the emails, and are sitting with the lawyers and sitting with the accountants, that is a key piece to ensuring that that transition and that acquisition takes place well.

Jason Pereira: Yeah. And I think, I would also suggest that too often people have this number in their head that may have no bearing in reality. And that, frankly, we need to look at basically what is realistic, not just at the time of exit, but throughout the time prior to exit, right? Look at what's happening in your industry in terms of what exit multiples are. Compare yourself to them. Talk to your accountants. Get a business valuation done on occasion, right? Get coaching. I mean, there's certified exit planners that will help you basically stretch your business for maximum optimal sale. To simply say, like, I've literally had cases, you know, one in particular, where a valuation was done, and it's like, we think your business is worth five. Well, okay, but I won't take anything less than seven. But this wasn't a negotiation. They're just the valuator, and they're like, no, your business is not worth seven. What is your reason for thinking it's worth 40% more? Well, congratulations, you can just think whatever you want. People aren't going to pay an extra two million dollars because you think that.

Tanis: Yeah. It's just like buying and selling a house. It's the same scenario, a lot of the same dynamics.

Jason Pereira: Well, yeah. And this is, we're getting into behavioral finance and the cost of the endowment effect. If you have something that you own, it is more valuable to you, perceptively, than if you were to basically make a bid for it. And in a lot of ways, I think it would be a valuable exercise for many to take, you know, take their financial statements, cross out their name at the top, and basically ask, what would I pay for this business, right? And I think in that kind of blind test, I'm willing to bet it really does not look the same.

Tanis: Absolutely. Yeah.

Jason Pereira: So basically, hopefully this conversation will help people avoid tricks and traps and issues. What are some key pieces of advice, you know, if you're going to encapsulate everything you do, what are the key pieces of advice you're trying to sum it down to when it comes to basically getting involved with a co-founder?

Tanis: Yeah. I mean, ultimately, understanding that this could be one of the greatest relationships that you have in your life. The ability to go on these kinds of journeys, which require a hundred percent buy-in, and that adventure that being an entrepreneur is, having someone in those trenches with you, or where you can sit back in the rocking chair later and say, oh my gosh, remember when. Stephen and I are very fortunate that we have these stories of the characters of our lives that we've had in our world, that we can sit back and laugh about and joke about and cringe about and say, this is insane. And it really is a special, special relationship. And when I talk to partners who have successful businesses, they all say that that partner is one of the most important and special people in their lives, and there is something about that.

Tanis: So I tell people from the get-go, get ready for what could be a great relationship, and be that person. Take the golden rule, do unto them as you would want them to do to you, and you will really flourish and enjoy that. But on the flip side, assume success but prepare for failure. So do the work. Do all the things that it takes to really ensure that you don't have that stress, that the emotional rollercoaster that your journey is going to put on you, make sure that doesn't translate into your partnership. So The Cofounder's Handbook is the A to Z, from the minute you'd wonder, should I get a partner, all the way over to the end, how do I exit this partnership? That will be the guide for there. Then we have the self-assessment, which helps people to really determine who they are and what they need in a co-founder. And then lastly, we have our discovery session, which is 120 questions that you need to sit down with your partner and ask, document, sign, and keep in a safe somewhere, so that you guys can refer back to it if there's any kind of conflict. And then lastly, stay intentional. Every day, look at your partner and go, how can I help them so that they help me?

Jason Pereira: Excellent. So, okay, before we wrap up, I want to ask one other question. We talked about successful exits. Let's talk about what's involved when the partnership goes wrong and someone wants out. Now, I make a point in making sure, wherever possible, every business I deal with has a partnership agreement in place, so we have at least a roadmap. And a partnership agreement is done by lawyers. We talked about this way back in episode one, about why this is important. But most businesses, sadly, do not have partnership agreements in place. So when that is not the case, what does breaking up a business look like?

Tanis: Yeah, so spare no expense. Now you've got to get legal involved. So you spend the money either in the beginning, or you're going to spend the money at the end, so whichever one it ends up being is the case. But if you are in a partnership, and I have, again, heard of this, where there's fraud, there's theft, there's just a founder goes M.I.A., the first thing you need to do is you've got to meet with a lawyer. Now, number one, you've got to go, you've got to say, you know, we don't have a partnership agreement, or we do, and you need them to help you analyze and know what your options are. That's number one. From there, anticipate a rough battle ahead. Prepare the culture of your business. Understand that your employees, your investors, your suppliers, your vendors, all of them are going to figure out something's going on, and you want to stop the rumor mill. You want to ensure and re-enact confidence in your business. So you do also want to begin to clarify, I've got control here, things are shored up, your job is still good, your investment is still in quality hands, and you've got to spend that time to ensure that that fact is true. So there's a lot of parallel lanes that you need to be running while you're trying to dissolve a partnership. So get legal advice. Focus on the culture in your business. Make sure that when your partner leaves, there's a role, there's a person there to fill that gap, if there is a gap. And really make sure that you break that rumor mill and you instill confidence in those that will be left behind.

Jason Pereira: Excellent. Tanis, thank you so much for this. Greatly appreciate it. Hopefully we've together managed to prevent people from making some serious mistakes in their lives.

Tanis: Yeah, absolutely. As much as I'd love to see successful entrepreneurship, I hate to see things blow up, which can happen too often.

Jason Pereira: So, all right, where can people find you and these resources?

Tanis: Yeah, so you can go to The Cofounder's Hub, that has all our resources, thecofoundershub.com. The book is available on every single book platform, Amazon, Kobo, Apple, et cetera, Kindle. And then if you want to look more at what I'm up to, it's tanisjorge.com, and I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram as well, if you want to follow me there.

Jason Pereira: So that was my interview with Tanis Jorge. If you are looking to get into a partnership, or if you're in a partnership with some trouble already, I highly suggest you take a look at her website and basically do what you can to make sure this is the right decision for you going forward. As always, as I said before and I will still say, it's like a marriage, but a different kind of marriage. This one, it's also very complicated and involves more people, unfortunately. And as always, if you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever it is you get your podcasts. And until next time, take care.

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